Stacy: Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of between two Brokers today we have Trip Cummings with Barrier Pest Services.
Stacy: You’re on actually because the first time I met you, you made me laugh very hard for a long period of time.
Erin: so what did he say do you remember.
Stacy: I don’t even remember we were at an inspection.
Trip: it was probably a dad joke, I’m sorry.
Stacy: I mean yeah there were definitely some dad jokes involved- but we want to learn today from Trip some more information about pest control as it relates to real estate – tell us all about termites- tell us all about all the things that the public needs to know about in terms of what you do!
Erin: start with a brief background – like did you grow up here?
Trip: originally from Spartanburg – I came to College of Charleston in 1991 and was a biology major there – the doctors out there if you if you did well on the MCAT you got to be a doctor if you didn’t do well in the MCAT then you go figure out something else to do so I I ended up in the in Pest Control industry probably 25 years ago now and and havebeen employed have own company for 20 plus years now.
Stacy: How do you wind up in Pest Control?
Trip: I met somebody at college that tells you how much money you should be making and you could go work in Pest Control to do that and the job I was in at the time was was not that and so it didn’t really come to be what he was saying but it just sucks you in but it’s been a it’s it’s been an interesting career and and a lot of fun and a lot of unique experiences for sure but yeah we we have a good time with it
Stacy: So you do all of your inspections or do you have other people in your company do them?
Trip: so I probably do 75% of the CL-100 inspections I’m really involved in that aspect I carry a residential Builder license and that’s probably unusual for someone to have that doing these inspections but it’s it’s very helpful for me when I inspect things I can give people feedback on you know really what things are is this significant is this minor things like that but I do have that background and do do majority of the inspections still for real estate real estate closings and CL-100s
Erin: so we’ve talked about CL-100s on the podcast before but in case we have someone who wasn’t listening just explain what it is what you’re looking for ?
Trip: Yep so yeah CL-100 stands for clearance letter I don’t know what the 100’s for maybe they really should redo the form so maybe the 200’s going to look better but it’s the wood destroying organisms and the insects are usually the big things the termites are the main insect but you have some beetles and other things like carpenter bees and some carpenter ants but termites are the big insect on there the other reason they just don’t call it wood destroying insects is because you have moisture is an organism that causes a lot of damage but the moisture is below the first main floor of a house it does not include roof leaks and and stuff above the first floor so there’s limitations on what is reported for moisture on a house
Erin: okay
Trip: yeah but insect termites really people call the termite letter and that’s that’s so much of it but moisture in the especially crawl spaces is just as important as well
Stacy: so just so everybody knows when we write a real estate contract one of the things that you can check is whether you want to have a a termite letter clearance letter contingency on the contract it is a part part of every single one of our deals even if I don’t check that box on the contract I always have Trip come out and do the termite inspection and wood rot inspection but basically it’s a two-page report and you have to notate moisture levels
Trip: correct
Stacy: and you have to notate basically all of your visual findings and that was the other thing I actually remember about the inspection that you came to is that you were commenting on the structure of the property it was that one out in Kiawah River and you said those were like the biggest
Trip: the pilings were
Stacy: yeah
Trip: they’re incredible so that’s just well built home and stuff
Stacy: and we had bees there
Trip: yeah that’s right you had yeah I’m because it it falls you know under something we look at and and understand it’s not on the report but I’m going go hey you’ve got honey bees pouring out the wall here I’d be just a real idiot just to leave and not mention that to you but
Stacy: right
Trip: yeah so
Stacy: actually the inspection didn’t notate it but you also told me that you couldn’t deal with that which was a shock to my seller so explain that
Trip: so honey bees are the in the pest control industry we really are trying to protect the bees anything that’s just not something you should be treating against but bees are so important as pollinators their numbers are suffering so badly so we’re very cautious in mosquito applications and and other pest treatments but you want to get the bees out of the wall you don’t want to just kill them uh up in the wall you’ll end up with a honey that can just be a big mess for a secondary insects and stuff like that so you always want to let a beekeeper come in on something like that and take care of it
Erin: Was there a comb in the wall
Stacy: I don’t know but he got everything out
Trip: there’s going to be
Erin: You did deal with it
Trip: no I did not no, yeah we don’t deal with bees and you just leave that to the beekeepers
Erin: yeah yeah yeah yeah usually I think they just have to relocate the queen and then everyone else follows
Trip: Yeah they do something they they dress up and smoke them and do something with them but
Erin: yeah that disorients them
Trip: it’s hard to say
Erin: my husband used to beekeeper on the side
Stacy: of course he did
Erin: yeah I have a beekeeper suit
Erin: yeah okay so termites is obviously like the number one issue here. Talk about why what they do what they look like the worst case you’ve ever seen
Trip: oh gosh so the Charleston’s unique because we have something called Formosan subterranean. They were introduced somewhere in the 40s or 50s Charleston and the New Orleans wants to argue who had them first there’s it’s not an award you really want to have but they’re very destructive they don’t occur throughout a lot of the State but because of the damage they do it’s so important to make sure you know if there’s a problem with those that’s identified sooner than later our native species is Eastern Subterranean they don’t show up very often here we see that maybe about 10% of the times and in 90% it’s formosan. Formosan colonies are 10 times as large they can store pockets of water above ground they build cart nests they’ll eat through I’ve seen them eat through tar. I’ve seen them eat through some soft Metals, neoprene, just weird stuff so they’re really capable of doing some incredible things but we got them here and they’re a major problem they’re just doing major damage so that’s big part of our inspections and and making sure if there’s a problem going on with those or if there’s a pass problem is as well just to identify that you know hey this looks like it’s been a significant infestation and you got major damage as a result but I’ve seen walls open up on homes and the whole structure sometimes all the framing is just destroyed and you may not see anything happening they’ll poke poke out sometimes when they have swarm season but they’ll stay in a wall sometimes many many years with no no evidence yeah and you touch the paint it’s rippling or you know there all a sudden you got some dirt on the wall and you move the dirt and there’s an insect looking at you they’re milky white small you know quarter inch or so but they’ll be staring at you and I’ve heard some people do stuff like well we just put some toothpaste over the whole and we still have the problem well yeah it’s not going to go away and then people will also try to treat something like that and if you don’t get to the source you’ve just done nothing but you know just kill a couple kill a couple termites in that area and then and they’re going to still eat the house
Erin: and the source like what just
Trip: so majority infestations are still ground based 5 to 10% or above ground aerial people always say do y’all cover the the swarming the flying flying termites well they all swarm at a certain point but formosans are capable of swarming into a above ground sight finding moisture and eating the house top down warranties and and and people want to call bonds I’m big I’m big on trying to change the language to calling a warranty. Bond really should mean something else but you’ve got warranties and the and the insurance providers behind these warranties say we have to be able to prevent it to be able to provide coverage for that if they fly in and there’s a construction defect and they start top down we never had we couldn’t we couldn’t touch it there was nothing we could do to prevent that from happening so we’re seeing a lot of that where you know things they do start and these beautiful homes now in Charleston the guys that are doing flashing they don’t get paid enough but or they just we don’t have people that that that do the construction well enough sometimes and moisture shows up and it’s it’s a big problem
Erin: it’s always the fucking flashing
Stacy: it’s always the flashing seriously
Trip: yeah
Erin: do better
Trip: there’s some neighborhoods around here they’re just getting blacklisted cuz beautiful homes but golly the water problems are just something else and these stucco fireplaces and foam being put on the houses still I thought we learned our lesson with foam 20 30 years ago but they’re
Stacy: okay what’s the lesson with foam
Trip: with foam so so spray foam any type of foam board the termites like to they’ll travel through it they don’t eat it but they’ll eat through it insulates them well stays they stay hidden but it’s just it’s a concealer it’s a big big problem and it holds moisture right up against the other surface that they’re you know sticking against and the termites go in there and they just you don’t see them forever
Stacy: but saying you don’t think that foam should be we though like if it’s in a roof it’s okay
Trip: so open cell in a roof you want to see those leaks too so that’s important walls it’s okay but crawl spaces substructure and some of these encapsulation companies are spray foaming the foundation walls and they’re putting it right in contact with the soil and it’s I mean it just doesn’t need to be on the foundation walls it doesn’t need to be in the crawl space anywhere with exception if you put a a little piece over a vent opening to enclose it for a dehumidifier or around maybe some duck work where you’re trying to reinsulate that boot but nowhere else
Stacy: gosh you have to be so careful when you hire somebody to work on your house
Trip: well of course the spray foam guys they’re going to sell you the spray foam
Stacy: oh but they can ruin
Trip: but here’s the thing really when you get down to insulation you shouldn’t insulate your crawl space in Charleston Code you’re supposed to but power company says you save about $100 a year having a crawl space insulated it it hides moisture it rodents living it it falls down it costs money to put up there so by the time you’ve saved your money you’ve got to replace it and you’ve caused a lot of other problems so
Stacy: right
Trip: no crawl space insulation the best thing and helps us out tremendous
Stacy: right and I think that’s a misconception because when people are buying houses like some people that had insulation under it it’s like oh reinstall the insulation and I always tell them just to take it down
Trip: well in Mount Pleasant you’re going to deal with the code’s going to get you they’re if you’re doing a remodel or something like that they’re going to be they’re pretty pretty strict on making sure you’re reinsulating so you got to you got to figure out a way to balance that but no spray foam you know bat insulation only
Erin: so let’s say you’re building a house in an X flood zone and you can do whatever you want would you build slab craw space or elevated that’s
Trip: I’m actually building a elevated home right now and uh you know there’s benefits and advantages to them all crawl space the biggest problem is the moisture in there so if you’re building a crawl space if that’s the way you’re going to go get probably start with a dehumidifier from the get-go just go ahead and condition that space and then you’ve taken care of that’s the biggest headache with with crawl space is. Slabs you know you take away that crawl space but people want to be off the ground a little bit I know they got the elevated slabs and and raise slabs that gives you that but just yeah that’s I mean I’m fine with anything but just if you’re going to do a crawl space just condition it from day one
Erin: and and the biggest issue with elevated homes you know and by that I mean like being able to park under it is it just like wood to ground contact
Trip: well there’s a lot of that yeah but the we used to think the elevator homes they were the easiest to take care of and they’re some some of the most difficult now because usually if the home is getting elevated there’s a lot of you know construction features are you know prone to moisture problems so flat roofs that’s that’s another if you don’t pitch a roof well enough in the flat roofs they’re holding water and then they find that water and they go down from there uh the porches and just just just a lot of complexities a lot of these elevated homes unfortunately so but yeah just making sure it’s watertight and avoiding some of these high-risk construction designs are very important
Erin: and then you before any construction starts you treat the soil
Trip: treat the soil yeah some companies are going to go and you go around you might see the greenhouse or the blue house and the with the studs that have been painted or Borate has been applied to it the builders have really enjoyed that because what’s happened when a home is being built and you’re trying to do a so pretreatment is the so maybe too wet so we might have to tell the Builder you know we can’t we can’t do that today which means the builder can’t pour today and that’s frustrating so these companies have come in and offered borate treatments on the wood and they spray it with a tracker dye and put the wood maybe 2 feet up and 2 feet out from where it touches concrete I’ve seen the formosans ignore they go right on top of it they go through if you got like a double stud they’ll go right between the two studs and it never never stops them and builders are using that as an only treatment source is a secondary it’s okay but I don’t I don’t recommend it really for anything but there’s companies that’ll choose to do it and they’ll probably put some chemical in the ground eventually cuz it’s just not a good idea
Erin: well and the soil treatment like how deep do you go what does that look like whole lot
Trip: you’re right you’re right at the top of the footing so you trench around the foundation you apply the the product it stays right up against there because you’re trying to have a barrier where termites are coming up from the ground trying to go into the structure so if you’re too low you’re going to miss them so you really want to be right there at the kind of top of the footing is how that’s applied bait stations are another product that gets you know gets used some companies do that as a standalone I don’t recommend that the formosans it only works if they go feed on the station we’re seeing a lot of complicated homes with crawl spaces being encapsulated or really decorative stonework uh we’ll use a bait in conjunction with a liquid in those situations but not as not as a you know standalone system but companies will say it works great for them but we like to we like to make sure we have a liquid treatment on every home
Stacy: when you are offering a warranty
Trip: mhm
Stacy: right
Trip: see already got you you’re not saying bond you want to you want to say bond but you said warranty
Stacy: I said warranty
Trip: I appreciate that thank you yeah
Stacy: so your company does offer termite warranty
Trip: we do yes
Stacy: okay so explain what that involves so obviously now I’m going to have to have you come do a warranty on my house because you said that bait stations aren’t enough and that’s all I have but anyway so what’s involved with that you come out you take a look at a property what I want to know is how you because you’re not going to put a warranty on just any house so for instance if I had spray foam insulation say no way so talk about some of those things and then the cost to do it and what you do
Trip: so yeah first thing we come out do an estimate look at the home look at the construction design right off the right off the bat and we’re looking for things like spray foam flat roofs stucco anything like that that’s that’s going to be problematic from what we call repair warranty so we will try to offer something on every home but a repair warranty we’re definitely trying it’s getting harder to qualify that if we see things like that we’re going to be talking about a service warranty which means a retreatment only warranty so you still treat a house the same way put chemical against the foundation you drill attach slabs inject those slabs bait stations are applied in conjunction with the liquid if necessary we do a graph of the house note any pre-existing damage if a house is really these older homes downtown are getting harder as well if you got a lot of pre-existing damage we’re probably going to offer service warranty because we we not we don’t want to be responsible for old damage on the house if termites crawl up and they there’s been some pre-existing damage they find their way to it somebody could argue well you found live termites you should be responsible for all that so older homes lot of homes lot of damage you’re probably only going to get service warranties but there’s some companies now that are even choosing not to offer a service warranty at all so but we still can offer repair warranties but it is getting harder to do that and the criteria it’s is is you know it’s it’s getting more difficult for sure
Stacy: so how much does this warranty cost
Trip: so it’s less than $100,000 on every house so far no it we really look at it it’s I would say a lot of the homes in our area you’re probably starting around $1,000 to $2,000 initially and then a yearly renewal is going to be applied paid yearly there it’s probably $250 to $500 in there it just depends on if you’ve put a bait system or two systems or whatever it is
Stacy: and how often do you come out
Trip: so we’re out at least yearly and we’re going to do an inspection of the house give you a written report and feedback on anything if there’s a problem we’re not just going to hand you the report we’re going to discuss that with you do you have a something leaking do you have water in the cross space do you have active active active termites or something else happening of course we’re there if there’s a problem in between we get a lot of calls when the swarm season comes and for formosans it’s in May June and so we’ll get a lot of calls about that we have to go and check those out and just see is this normal or is this a problem but at least yearly we come by and check on it if everything goes well we’re not going to do any retreatment until year 10 one thing unique about our program is that we’re not going to charge you for those retreatments some companies every five or 10 years they’ll charge you for any additional retreatments and we’re going to cover that as maintaining your warranty so it’s about a 50/50 how companies do that some of them will offer that same same retreatment included and others are going to charge you each time they have to do anything
Stacy: I want to ask you about real estate contract so I’m sure real estate agents drive you crazy
Trip: no
Stacy: and we drive each other crazy
Trip: okay
Stacy: when we’re negotiating so for instance one thing that frequently comes up on a CL-100 report is like uh fungi
Trip: fungi they I’m fungi like me I’m fungi
Stacy: yeah you’re a fun guy that’s why you’re here
Erin: That’s a dad joke
Trip: fun guy I’m sorry sorry
Stacy: okay so yeah we we’ve got fungi
Trip: which which is just rot
Stacy: okay
Trip: that’s just a good word for rot
Stacy: okay or what about mold or mildew on piers and stuff so then somebody goes in and then they’re like well you have to pay to have all of this cleaned off but it just comes right back right
Trip: depends all right so for us as pest control people especially right in the CL-100 we’re not allowed to use the M word. Mold is not we don’t talk about it we don’t re we got a disclaimer that says we don’t know anything about mold so it’s when we do something with a CL-100 inspection we’re looking at that and we’ve got to suggest things that are going to prevent moisture problems from reoccurring you have to control the moisture these fungal treatments it’s going to kill that but you can still have elevated moisture come back into an area but the the mold treatments it should not not ever be recommended on the CL-100 I see some companies doing it it’s not a corrective measure for preventing excessive moisture so you shouldn’t be having a company do that now home inspection they can they can ask for that but from a CL-100 no but yeah so we go through homes and you see tons of wood decay rot fungi and we’re looking to make sure the levels are not you know excessive which is 20% or above you know 20% to 27 they say inactive wood Decay and then at 28 above it’s active it’s a misleading term it inactive just means it’s happening slower than than active but you’re still getting a level of decay and a lot of the homes we see will get into the range of inactive you know a good good amount of times the active you got leaks generally or you just have a rainforest under the house it’s you know really really bad I mean there’s some of these homes it’s just like they’re sweating it’s uh it’s it’s so bad sometimes but
Stacy: but what is the situation that creates that is it certain parts of town is it a certain way of construction it’s I mean
Trip: it’s humidity we’re in subtropical environment so you’re out there the all the humidity is coming into the crawl space it settles out and you’ve got that nice damp cool crawl space and just perfect for the the for the moisture to find its way in there and and hang out we used to 20 plus years ago and and unfortunately there’s some that did not get the memo but you don’t put a fan on the side of the house to suck the the warm humid air into your crawl space more readily we used to think that was a good idea let’s we’re going to clear out the crawl space with this nice warm humid air and it was not solving the problem so we see homes where the ventilation you’re supposed to have one ventilator every 150 square feet but we go to crawl spaces that they don’t have any ventilation they do well we got some that have tons of ventilation they they’re not doing so well but it’s controlling and making sure that outside air is just not coming in that crawl space it’s just so important and so these condition systems and encapsulations have become so important and I was skeptical at first but that’s about the only thing I see correct in some of these crawl spaces that have had bad moisture problems
Stacy: so when I write the contract I don’t put the CL-100 contingency in there be I I have you do the inspection so we can do it during the due diligence period but the reason I don’t is because the majority of CL-100 reports come back with something on it
Trip: right
Stacy: so I mean what percentage of CL-100 reports would you say are squeaky clean like there’s nothing
Trip: so nothing on there I mean it’s the new constructions and I mean 10% maybe 20% and it this is another thing that when you you ask what I thought about real estate agents earlier the one thing that I’m always trying to educate them on is is this they call me up is this a clear letter is this is this letter clear is it dirty like dirty said or there is there damage boxes checked and recommendations it depends on what your contract we don’t we’re not past failing it’s whatever your contract is so we’ll write these reports hand them over and they should look at what their contract requirements are to say do we need to do anything with this or is this okay but generally the to answer their question which I’m not going to answer it by you know failing or passing or clean or dirty is recommendations are checked and if you have damage you’re going to probably have to do something with someone else to get this thing moved along
Stacy: right
Trip: a contractor or with your control expert or something like like that
Stacy: and I don’t even think you’re the person they need to ask if the CL-100 is clean it’s the it’s the closing attorney when they look at your report they’re the ones that throw up the red flag
Erin: I don’t think you need to ask anybody you read the fucking report and figure it out for yourself
Stacy: not not everyone’s as perfect we listen real estate agents
Trip: I’ve been on the phone I’ll play the part of real estate attorney – I’ve can do all kinds of things sometimes I’m sometimes a counselor as well but no I’ll no it’s it’s yeah there’s I mean I guess a lot of questions I’ve got a lot of experience with that too there used to be now in fairness so the agents that have been around for a little while used to have a report that was issued and it had checkboxes that would say do we recommend a contract your yes or no and are you going to be you know doing the repairs yourself and and does this require repairs and what they did is they looked at the report and the state looked at and said all these guys are not contractors and they’re all checking the box that says recommend licensed contractor so they took away that that recommendation or or not recommending things and just kind of just you know pass it along so damage box check now probably means you’re going to have to get a contractor yeah so
Stacy: yeah all right give us some horror stories like what’s the some of the worst you’ve seen
Trip: what do you want to talk about rats termites
Erin: all of it
Stacy: yeah
Trip: all right so
Stacy: what’s the gross what’s the grossest
Trip: so probably well I went into lady’s home in Goose Creek probably 15 years ago and she was her older lady her parents had both passed and she was living in the house and she called me up said she was having a problem with rats in her house and I said okay well let me go out there and check this out and I walk in and right away I knew there was pretty significant problem there was a dumpster in the driveway with a bunch of stuff in it to start off with but I’m walking in and I look on the floor she had two big dogs and there’s just 50 lb bags sitting everywhere where she would open up the dog food feed the dogs and just throw the bag on the floor and I’m walking through the the hallway and I’m stepping on nothing but bags of empty bags of dog food and I get to the kitchen and there’s just major hole in the floor and this is a nicer neighborhood up there in Goose Creek and nice furnishings in the house and all that and I felt so bad she looked at me and she said I really need some help with with this and I said what you know she said I’ve been doing rats for a long time and I said okay well let me see what I can do she go you know at night I have to throw some food down at the floor because they’ll nibble on my toes otherwise and I said oh boy this is going to be a good one so I think I took about two dozen snap traps and we wouldn’t normally put up snap traps on your uh kitchen counter but uh next day I went back and I think there were about about 18 of them just in there and they were running around while I was in the house to to start off with I mean they were just there there was not enough hiding spots for them so yeah we worked on that for a while and I think we got it in a good place but it needed more than what I was able to
Stacy: how many rats are in a nest in a situation know
Trip: they can it’s not just one I mean that’s the thing is we get get a call all the time people like I got one rat they like you
Erin: did you have to explain to this woman that you don’t feed them
Trip: she just she wanted her toes not to be bitten so it was I mean I was like I understand I mean I could appreciate that and then now and then downtown I was doing inspection years ago and I went under the house and I come out and I was I would just I just didn’t know how I was going to approach the the couple that was in there this is near cross town and I was doing inspection for him and walked up there and the woman goes did you see anything that we need to know about or anything unusual and I said ma’am I don’t know how to explain to this to you but I think somebody’s living underneath your house there’s a sleeping bag and someone has set up kind of a nightstand and it just looked like they were really getting comfortable under there and the woman I mean it didn’t hardly get out of my mouth and she looks at her husband she goes I thought you told your brother he needed to move out and I was like oh I don’t think I gave I just left I think at that point I was just like well maybe you didn’t know I I don’t know but
Erin: oh my God
Stacy: I wasn’t expecting that Trip
Erin: I can’t believe the guy had a nightstand
Trip: no
Stacy: amazing
Trip: yeah but and just termites I mean we just see houses that are just absolutely ravaged
Stacy: but it but it doesn’t matter one thing I think that’s a misconception is that people think that it’s like an older home but you have this with you know newer homes right
Trip: if if I had to go and and take care of an old house or a new house and do absolutely nothing and go I’ll pay for the damages I would take that older house they’re built built better uh the lumber is harder especially these downtown structures also about 1982 we there used to be a product called chlordane which was this almost equivalent of diesel fuel they poured in the ground those older homes have that chlordane around it which was nasty stuff it stayed around forever these newer homes after that have any residuals like beyond 10 to 15 years so yeah the older homes they’re they’re easier usually and and they can take a lick and these new ones termites get on there for a moment and usually produce significant damage.
Stacy: yeah
Erin: I’m unwell
Trip: oh I can get you real creepy
Erin: there’s let’s go there
Trip: I go to homes and you’re like I there’s no way I’m still in the same country I had have left the country when I when I walked into this house so yeah it’s I’ve had roaches I mean I’ve went through front doors and roaches are falling on you as you walk in the door and you ask a person you know how are things going here they said oh we’re seeing a couple roaches and I just got I just got a show
